S4 E3: What does ‘coming out’ mean to you? Featuring The Coming out coaches

Hannah 0:32
Hi, everyone, welcome to refreshingly human. We are a podcast all about human connections and shared experiences. And you know, I’ve done an entire season of emotions, it got really, really deep. So now we are going to do something a bit more positive, but more upbeat. And we’re going to be talking all about achieving our dreams, setting our goals. And I’m so honored to be joined by Lucy and Vanessa, from the coming out coaches, they are liberating mind and body coaches who help their clients overcome physical and emotional pain, and they help you pursue your dreams and to become your true self. That sounds pretty amazing. Right, guys? We welcome. Hi, would you like to just tell us a little bit more about yourself and your company and how it started? And why?

Lucie 1:47
Yes, sure. So Hello, everybody. So, I am Lucy, and I’m a certified life coach from the International coach Academy, which is an ICF accredited training school.

Vanessa 2:01
And I’m Vanessa, Hi, I am a certified fitness trainer and specialized in functional training, and recently new athletic training. And focusing on nutrition as a nutritional coach through precision nutrition. And, in parallel, I’m still working as a scientific assistant at the university. And there I’m supporting researchers to handling the data and numbers. So that’s like my second passion.

Lucie 2:35
And about the coming out coaches. So how it started about two years ago, I was still in my corporate job, I had a very good stable position. But I realized that my life was not fulfilling what I was doing was not fulfilling. So okay, I resigned. And then I started to look for some jobs, but still didn’t feel that what I’m looking for is exactly what I want. And add this button, let’s say my passion was my joy was always to support others anyway, in my life. This is no way I could do it, I would do it. So, this was my part. And at the same part, at the same time, Vanessa was part of a mentorship program, trying to find her mission and her life goals and to you know, her higher purpose.

Vanessa 3:27
And can I put one off course I was just I was just finished my PhD. And I was wondering, okay, what’s now there are no job advertisements that wrong. Sounds really sexy to me. So, what should I do now with my education?

Lucie 3:44
Yeah, so she was searching as well for her life mission. And during this mentorship program, she also realized how much she loved supporting others, but in this this time to move towards for sports and how to have a good physical shape and feel good with your body. So, we’re sitting there together, I mean, we are a couple Okay, we live together we were talking about all of that and realizing that I want to support others through changing their mindset and how to find joy.

Vanessa 4:16
And I want to support others to become more inspired and train themselves and get healthy and fit.

Lucie 4:25
So then we decided that I would pursue we would both pursue more studies

Vanessa 4:30
I would be a

Lucie 4:32
life coach and Vanessa would be increased more horses her studies on sports.

Vanessa 4:38
Exactly with what

Lucie 4:39
Yeah, and then we decided let’s do this together. And we decided to be the coming out coaches and why the coming on coaches. So since we are a lesbian couple ourselves, we thought we would like to support LGBTQIA individuals as well as their families. Are the friends whoever is in their close environment. So they can, you know, live a life by being true to themselves by being, you know, connected and have a great life all together. So, this is how the coming out coaches are were born.

Hannah 5:16
That’s amazing. That’s so inspirational. And I love that you guys decided you wanted to help your communities and then went and got the extra knowledge and the certifications to do it. And yeah, that’s really cool. So, is where are you guys based? And is it an online coaching thing? And is it only for the lgbtqi community? Or is it open to everyone?

Vanessa 5:41
So we are located in Switzerland, no small town, for between towns, let’s say, closer to Muslim, very nice mountain area or the close. And so, business is online, mostly. So, it doesn’t matter where we are, we would always find a time and tools to meet virtually. And since you were asking about this is only for this community. It started like this. But we also realized that our approach is like universal and every human being could benefit from it. And now this term coming out, got an even bigger meaning for us. Like everyone could come out with something, a new passion, a new lifestyle, new gods that they were afraid before to set for themselves, or whatever it is. So now we even see it in a much bigger context.

Hannah 6:50
Cool. That’s awesome. It’s good. It’s just good to clarify who your target is. Well,

Lucie 6:56
the targets are humans. This is of course, of course we are ready to support anyone is just that. Because lgbtqi community in general hasn’t been as approached and as supported as we would hope. So, this isn’t the only reason. But of course, whoever would need our support, we would be more than happy to be there for them and help them achieve their goals and become their true self.

Hannah 7:21
Amazing. Well, so I saw you guys buy that you say you can help people accomplish whatever they want. And while I think that’s a big statement, do you think that when people set out to do something or they set out a goal, do you think that the problem is with their ability to reach the goal? Or is it the foundation of the goal setting that’s the issue? Well,

Lucie 7:48
I would say that it’s the first, the first, let’s say challenge is the fact that we don’t believe a lot in ourselves. And also, we have, we cannot, it’s not that easy to really commit. And to what is not always helping is that we don’t keep our end goal in mind, and how we will feel when we really reach it. We are struggling with this every day trying to reach the goal without really realizing the importance and what we will feel when we actually reach that goal. So, if you put this feeling this euphoric feeling of really, the moment you get what you worked for, you know, and you have this in mind, while somehow trying to stay to your commandment or started or try to overcome whatever is holding you from having this courage to do it. But thinking, Oh, my goodness, when I will reach this goal, it’s gonna be amazing, you know, this height, to have it in mind that it’s all about that gut feeling. And once you have achieved this one goal, then you’re ready for the next one. And it’s like, it’s like, hard to say this is the best drug ever. Because once you’ve done once, and you see how amazing it is you want more and more and more. So it’s more to have this end goal in mind.

Hannah 9:20
Yeah, that’s interesting. So if it’s set, for example, if it’s a really big end goal, do you guys help your clients to maybe break it down into smaller steps to get there? But maybe what you’re saying is that while we while we have the smallest steps, we always remember where we want to be as a motivation, right?

Lucie 9:41
Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. We break it into into pieces into little target smaller targets. And always trying to find achievable daily small goals, that it’s there. Possible someone is paused, it’s possible to, to remain on that path. To make it like it’s a fun trip, it’s not a burden of everyday a bit towards your end goal always have in mind your end goal and the path is still enjoyable.

Hannah 10:21
It’s a journey. Right? Exactly.

Vanessa 10:23
It’s a journey. And we want that our clients start with a mindset of being a winner, we want to set them up in a way that they will win, and they will have success. And this starts with a code setting and taking the small steps, if the steps are like to peek outside of what the client could reach, even when stretching, and stretching is part of the process. If you want to grow, we need to go further and from where we are right now, right? So it’s all about finding the right action steps and the right next steps on this path. So that at the end, we can achieve the big end goal.

Lucie 11:10
So if I might just one thing about Sorry, I really, I feel like it’s important about not believing in ourselves. You know, sometimes we cannot, we don’t do something because we don’t believe in ourselves enough to say, you know, I want to dare to do this x thing.

Hannah 11:27
It’s kind of like imposter syndrome, isn’t it? We kind of think like Who are we to be doing what we want to do? And like maybe we don’t we’re not good enough to do it. And it kind of like puts us in the backseat and of our dreams, I suppose you know, where we’re not taking the wheel and believing in the power we have to get out?

Lucie 11:48
Absolutely. But the secret is, do it anyway.

Hannah 11:52
Yeah. Wow. Okay. And I guess with the help of a coach, maybe you can have someone to help you get to that point of actually believing that you can do it. You know, like, I guess like, for me, it’s like every little thing that I achieve in my life, like you said, it’s like a drug like, oh, I’ve lost. I’ve lost 25 kilograms in my past and that kind of like, Oh, my God, I could do that. I could do anything it kind of like it, you know, it kind of like just gets you there, you know? Because, yeah, we definitely do have a lot of mental barriers, which leads nicely to the next question. What do you think I know you mentioned not believing in ourselves, but what do you think are the top three mental barriers when it comes to us? Our limitations in what we put on ourselves for reaching our goals. Well,

Lucie 12:42
for me, it’s again, it’s this having in mind the importance of achieving a goal. Because at the end of the day, for instance, as you said very well about in your case that you managed to lose 25 kilos, and I would like to congratulate you for that, because it’s amazing. Yeah. And the thing is, when we put a goal, like I want to lose, whatever, 10 kilos, okay? And then I use it, what I’ve lost is fat. Okay, I lost the fat. But what I won is not only the fact that I lost this fat, is that I want believing more in myself. This is the biggest victory that you think since I manage this, as you said, exactly, I can do anything, what is next, Bring it on, you know, nothing is scaring me anymore. So it’s this, it’s realizing for me, the first mental barrier is not to stop only thinking that it’s gonna be so hard to do X thing, lose 10 kilos or 25 kilos, okay, your goal was

Vanessa 13:51
huge. So.

Lucie 13:54
Okay. The thing is to keep in mind how it’s going to be after that, that once you will manage that you are unstoppable for whatever else you want to achieve.

Vanessa 14:04
Yeah. And then another blockage that I see that is really a huge one is that often, these goals that we want to achieve, are actually not goals that come from our heart, but only from our mind or ego. And what I mean with this is that maybe even our environment makes us think that we want or have to achieve something. So we set some goals that we set only in order to fit in our society, or because our parents think that we have to go to this Higher School, or because friends think you should do this. For example, maybe that might have been friends. In your case, I would say I think you should lose some weight, because I think it’s good for you and it’s more healthy. But if it’s not you and it’s if it’s not you decide From your insight that you really want to achieve this, it would have been much harder or even not possible for you to achieve your goal with this. Yeah, I think this is one one thing that often we, we, we follow not the path to the right goals.

Hannah 15:21
I love that Vanessa, you know, it just reminds me my, my therapist told me recently that he thinks I’m like this super, super hero who’s trying to like knock down all these ignorance and preconceived notions. And I totally agree with what you just said there, because I was someone who was brought up in I mean, I think a lot of us, most of us are brought up in a bubble, right? And we are told what to think we told what to believe. And along the way, we kind of like lose our independent thinking, and we lose touch with our true selves. And I know for me, it was a huge journey to go from realizing my true self as to who I was told I was supposed to be, that the benefit I had in that case was that I was never comfortable with the person that my society wanted me to be. That person just never felt like me. And that was my advantage, because it helped me to realize who I was independently, apart, you know, away from that. And it’s so true that we don’t realize what we really want, if we are clouded by what everyone wants for us. I absolutely love that, Vanessa. Totally. I think I think we mentioned two mental barriers there didn’t I,

Lucie 16:38
I have a third in mind that for me is very important as well is that we compare ourselves to others. When it comes to goal settings, for instance, we can see around us, it’s a bit of the peer pressure we see around us, because right now, it’s a trend with goals, everybody’s setting goals, let’s see how many things we can achieve and fast and more effectively. And there is pressure of making more and more and more. And at the end, we put ourselves into this mindset that I have to do the same. And we we try to do as fast, you know, and what if this is not our rhythm? to do things, you know, what if we need more time, what if we need a different path to reach this goal, whatever that is, because our path is unique anyway. And when we and also when we start a goal, and for any reason we fail, or we quit, we have the tendency to compare ourselves with those that accomplished that goal or made it or Wow, or you know, they were champions. And we never compare ourselves to those that never even set a goal. So, you know, we know so we never wonder the winners? How did they really make it? How hard was it? We don’t we see only then, and we don’t see the path? So it’s a bit to think about this the comparison with others.

Hannah 18:05
Amazing. Yeah, I’m gonna just put a story there from my own experience exactly what you said, Lucie? So with with the online world. With the online world, I think there’s a lot of pressure. And I speak about this a lot in my podcast, because like you guys said, you only see the people who are successful, you don’t actually see the people when they starting off. And I know when I started off on the online world, I had absolutely zero knowledge about how to do anything. And you join these communities and you join these forums. And you see people like oh my god, I put my podcast on and I got 1000 downloads in the first day and be like, what the hell what’s happening with my podcast? And then eventually you start feeling like you’re not doing good enough. But then you realize that Wait a minute, there’s a story behind this guy who got 1000 downloads on his first day. He’s not telling us the whole story is telling us. He’s just showing off that he got 1000 downloads, but there’s a story behind that. And you realize that it’s literally impossible for someone to just put out a podcast and just get 1000 downloads on the first day without having a cab to get.

Lucie 19:18
Absolutely, absolutely.

Hannah 19:21
But on that same note, Lucie, do you think that we can also look at people in a way that we use them as a way to inspire us? So wait, I just want to show you something actually one second. So I have this board. Can you see them? This was my weight loss board. When I started my journey it has like pictures of me at different weights. And then this is a friend of mine who I used as inspiration and I put it on my board because she lost the similar amount of weight to myself and I had that on my desk and this was my number. And this is my number right now. I’ve actually reached it. And I never thought that I would reach that number in my entire life because I’ve been overweight my entire life. But I used this friend of mine as a as a motivation to help me because I felt like if she could do it, I could do it.

Lucie 20:20
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, first of all, you are amazing. Your inspirational board is amazing. It reflects who you are now it shows your battle in one in one frame you have, what is what happened. You took your life into your own hands yourself into your own hands, and look at what you’ve done. So it’s incredible. And very inspirational.

Vanessa 20:49

Of course, yeah, we can look at others and what they achieve. But it really depends on with what is our mindset behind it? Is it to motivate us to pull us up like you did? It’s an inspiration. It’s this, okay, she did it. So I can do it as well. So this is a powerful technique to use to help us? Or is it to compare ourselves and make us small? And like, Oh, she’s so awesome. And I still didn’t start my journey, or whatever? Are these negative thoughts? It really depends on our mindset behind it.

Hannah 21:31
Yeah, absolutely. Because I could have, I could have done exactly that. You know, I could have been like, Oh, she’s she Oh, she looks so lovely. You she’s so energetic, I’ll never be like that. And I could have just never taken two steps. It’s definitely the stories we tell ourselves. So yeah, so I do see like a lot of, I think in every field, not just in coaching, there’s a lot of generic advice on the Internet of what we should be doing and how we should be doing it. So um, do you guys see that out there? Can you point out any top generic advices that you have seen? And what do you guys do that’s different to what we are being told to do online when it comes to setting goals and achieving our goals?

Vanessa 22:18
Yeah, you’re right, there are a lot of generic advices. But I would say that it’s not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, often these generic advisors are also proved techniques that work for many people. So there’s the possibility that it will also work for you. But then there are also people, and for those people need a different approach. And this generic advices might not be the right ones. And that’s another thing is generic advices. In general, it’s like knowledge, there’s a lot of knowledge out there. And if knowledge is the only thing that we would need to change, or to achieve our goals, then if I’m honest with you, we will not need any coaches in this world, right? Because it’s just the knowledge that is out there. Online, it’s even for free. If this would be enough, then all of us we would be have like thriving businesses, we would all be super rich, we would have an amazing partnership, or even a family and we would all be synesthetic. But obviously, it’s not the case. So we need more than just the knowledge and the advice. We need. coaches, for example, or mentors that hold us accountable that believe in us when we don’t believe in us in the first place. That may we also have this bird’s eye view to be able to do what you mentioned earlier to see what could be the next actions, the next steps that you can achieve. Because when you’re inside of your system, you might not be able to see this. So that’s also good. That’s why it’s good to have someone looking from the outside perspective on your situation.

Lucie 24:10
And mainly, our approach to be even more specific, is that we want to take you from where you were until today to where you want to go to whom you want to become. And we go using the most genuine tool that exists, which is compassion. Because it’s good to set the goals. We all know at some point, it’s going to be challenging. We can maybe not manage to commit. And then when this happens, some voices are appearing in our head saying, oh, you’re not good enough. Or you said you won’t eat this thing and you ate it again. Or you’re too lazy. You didn’t go running as you said you would you know so we start to blame ourselves and or I think said that thing I didn’t want to say it or why should I say I should have said the other thing? And in other words, we are bullying ourselves. And we are usually in this era, we’ve heard it so much of not doing it to others, which, of course, but what about not doing it also to ourselves, and to approach ourselves with compassion and love. And if one day, we don’t manage something, we go back or several days, go back with our coach and say, I said I would do it, I can’t. So our role is to revisit these goals and see what happened, what didn’t work for you. Because it’s it’s so important that it’s not one thing. And that’s it, we we are human beings, you know, and we have the right to not even though we agreed with something, when it comes to make it a reality to struggle, and to say, I wanted it, but I can’t. And our role is for you to try again. And again, and to allow yourself Infinite Opportunities to make things right.

Hannah 26:08
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think like therapists actually use this technique a lot, where they get you to talk to yourself as if you are talking to your best friend, because often our dialogue in our head is not what we would tell our best friend, you know, it’s very different. We don’t have that self compassion for ourselves, like we do for others. That’s, that’s really true. And I can, I can also speak so much about the benefits of having a coach because I, like I said, I lost 25 kilograms, but only 10 kilograms, I lost on my own, the 15 kilogram grams, I lost. In the end, I got the help of a coach, a coaching company, actually body smart fitness. And I can, I can really tell you that when you like, I was so skeptical, because it’s a lot of money, it’s an investment. But at the beginning of this year, I said, I’m investing in myself, that’s what I’m doing, I need to grow as a person, I need to break these barriers. And I said, I’m investing in myself, and I’m signing up with my, my coach to get to my goal was the best thing I ever did. because like you said, Lucy, I didn’t just lose 25 kilograms, I learned so much about health and fitness, and about my lifestyle and about positive mindset and about goal setting. You know, I just I got so much of valuable information. And it just changed my whole entire self as a person, my mindset, and eventually, you know, you get to a point where you can graduate from coaching, and independently look after yourself, because you have that mindset in place. And is that your goal for your clients to get them to that point of independence?

Vanessa 27:50
Yeah, it’s not only about the goals, as we stated already, it’s about becoming a better version of yourself. And at some point, yeah, the goal is that you won’t need us anymore, or you will need any coach, or you reach another level. And at some point, you realize, now I have another challenge that that showed up. And since I had already such a good experience with coaches, I will go again, for this approach, why struggle so much time on my own, when I can actually help if our car gets broken, we go somewhere to let it be fixed. And, of course, we could also get the toys and a handbook and watch YouTube videos and try to figure it out on our own. But at some point, we decide, let’s get out from someone who knows what he or she or what they are doing.

Lucie 28:50
But still, they it’s great when they they learn how the things work, and they are independent afterwards. And they can use this knowledge again and again for different things. And if it’s something new that they have no clue how to handle, then, of course, it’s great to go back to ask for your help. But for me, my ultimate dream is whomever we’re training or coaching or helping they get this mindset and then they help the others around them to do the same. Love that think differently. And to really through you know, to have the effect of opening up we open up a channel once one person feels happier and feels Oh yeah, that’s life. That’s what I’m talking about. And then they approach the brothers or sisters or best friends or parents you know, it’s not too late. You can do what you want, you can achieve your dreams. And this mindset of

Hannah 29:40
it’s the coming out, isn’t it? It’s like it’s the coming out of alum coming out of mindfulness in the end, you know, the butterfly effect that we want to spread mindfulness, we want to spread awareness and we want everyone else to to, you know to get that in their lives because I think when you when you experience it as a person when you experience coming out, and awakening to your true self, as you guys say, you want everyone around you to experience that as well. And you want that for them. And I think that’s really amazing. And that’s something that I’ve also want to achieve on this podcast as well is to spread that that message of mindfulness and, and being true to yourself and thinking, for me, it’s all about thinking independently learning to think independently and to, to question things as well. I think that’s gonna drift a little bit away from coaching. I was I was actually thinking, guys, you know, I’m, I’m not sure about how old you guys are right. But I’m 32. And, in some of my episodes, I spoke about how growing up, I never had all these, you know, like we didn’t, we didn’t grow up in the age of the internet. So I actually struggled a lot with like, my self esteem and my emotions for many, many years, because I didn’t have all this information. And I feel like nowadays, we are so lucky and blessed to have all of this resources and all of these, this information that even on this podcast, you know, people could be listening right now and being like, Oh, yes, this is something I struggle with, and recognize that they have a problem that they want to, to fix. Whereas when I was growing up, I had to, like, have everything in my head, and I had no outlet to resource anything. And even though coaching is such a new industry, it’s such a valuable industry. Because it’s something that, like you guys said, it helps us to guide us into the light, I could say, where as I know, growing up, I didn’t have that. And I was stuck stuck in that community. And I didn’t have any outside information to help me connect any dots to my true self as you guys say, do you have a similar experience to that? Yeah. So

Vanessa 31:56
first of all, we are both 41. So, we grew up without mobile phones first.

Hannah 32:08
Okay, one step further than me. There

Vanessa 32:12
must be the landline.

Lucie 32:14
Yeah, the modem was doing when it started,

Hannah 32:18
oh, my God, I used to take the landline, I remember I used to take the landline into the balcony and close the door. So my mom couldn’t hear me on the phone would bless those days. But did you find that like, you were stranded for information about things growing up? Because you know, like, I’m not sure what it was like for you guys growing up as LGBTQ community and not having that space around you to explore it.

Vanessa 32:50
Yeah, so this is right. I’m was wondering how would it be for me personally, with all this technology and information available today, because I grew up in a small town in Germany. And I think there was a gay guy in our school class and my age. But it was not a topic in general. But it was, in terms of his was, I think, wasn’t too negative for him. But it was also not really encouraging, for example, for myself about all these girls and boys hanging out together, I felt more comfortable with playing table tennis and stuff like that. And I was wondering, and there was like, no information available. I was not in an environment I knew, let’s say no girl or woman that was out. And that was a lesbian that I could ask in a bag, for example, Hey, would you take me with a party to a party with you or something to somehow explore what we’re like, let’s say shy thoughts in my head. So I started to just ignore them trying to fit in. And at the end, I came out first myself at the age of 34. I was single for 10 years. Wondering why there is around me, that I like that I feel attracted to. I was working in car companies where I was like the only woman in the department of for around 40 guys. And I was wondering, okay, these are all engineers, supposedly attractive men. Why, Why not me? And I think with more information or easier, available information, maybe I would have found different ways like to know where to go. Where could I find like minded people or women

Lucie 35:00

Hannah 35:01
absolutely, I think like I said, I think we are so blessed nowadays to have this information and to be able to speak about it. And to be able to hear that story, Vanessa, I think a lot of a lot of people would be able to connect with that story. And wow, 34 that that must have been quite as a painful journey, maybe

Vanessa 35:22
I wouldn’t say painful through this time, when I was single, I think I learned a lot about myself, I learned how to be happy, also on my own. And then there were just some events in, let’s say, six months. And it was also with the help of a coach at the end. So I went to this coach, I want because I wanted to clarify my mixed feelings for a guy that was interested in me, and who didn’t accept the rejection. And at the end, one week later, after this coaching session that also involved like hypnosis. Yeah, I went to another event. And that was just, let’s say, heterosexual, normal, whatever event nothing special. And there was another lesbian woman, and who answered all my questions, because I saw her and I had just such a crush with like, soft knees, and I don’t know, and we say butterflies in our Yeah, so these were just physical science from my body, indicating me, this is the direction where you should go from now on. So this was just so strong that I could not ignore it any longer. And from then on, it was an amazing journey. And every time I took the courage to explore the lesbian community, I was living in Berlin at that time, which was a great place to explore all of this. Every time I took the course and went out there, the universe rewarded me with amazing events or situations like meeting new people

Lucie 37:10
and 10 years because you forgot to she’s telling about it every time and today, she forgot to say it. It’s also how she discovered so much her passion about sports.

Hannah 37:21

Lucie 37:22
yeah. Now you remember it.

Yeah, she was rowing, and a lot and running. And she, this is how she kept herself, I think, mentally strong, it was all of this a lot of sports.

Vanessa 37:40
This was my social network. And also like, a sport, I discovered that sports can give you so much in terms of, for your self esteem. For I mean, it’s proven that a lot of crazy and amazing chemical stuff happening when we work out in terms of hormones that are released McAfee good.

Hannah 38:04
I love that you focus on the journey there, you know, and it just aligns with you guys company there because you focus on the journey and the what you learned and how you became your true self in that 10 years. That’s, that’s really amazing. I love that. Like, I myself how I was married for for seven years to in, in a marriage that was not for me, basically. And I can so connect with that feeling of that seven years for me was a great experience in where I learnt a lot about myself. And, yeah, totally different, though. Because, yeah, totally different. But I love that I love how you focused on your journey, and what you learned and what you experienced. And I think that’s that’s great alignment with what you guys are doing. And yeah, let’s go on to the fact that you guys are so into mindfulness and nutrition, and sports. And I really want to know, what, what role does all of this play in discovering your true self? And how does it all align with setting goals for yourself?

Vanessa 39:13
Yes, so to start with, when we were talking about what are these mind blockages, they mentioned that maybe the goals that we are pursuing are not ours. So using mindfulness, and maybe even meditation, to think of, if you think of a goal that you think you have, how does it feel for me? Does it spark joy in my heart thinking of this goal? Or is it basically fear of that others might judge me for? Not if I don’t have to score or things like that? So, using mindfulness to distinguish is a goal really Michael? Or is it coming from somewhere else from my environment? This is really also a way to discover ourselves and to discover who am I? What are my goals? So I think these two things like to be ourselves and setting goals are just to be connected the two together.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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